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Banksy (Yes,
Banksy) on Thierry, EXIT Skepticism & Documentary Filmmaking as Punk Note - The second in a series of interviews with the directors of some of our favorite nonfiction features of 2010... Whenever the subject of EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP has come up in casual or not-so-casual conversation over the past year, a vigorous discussion has fol
lowed. I've seen master filmmakers, newcomers, film critics and non-pros all engage in excited, lengthy dissections of the film - sometimes about what's real, what they suspect is not - often about the film's profound take on
art and commerce. In the end, no matter what point of view the individual holds, the conclusion seems to always be that it's a major work in the nonfiction canon. One would be forgiven for not expecting all this when Sundance announced EXIT as a late addition to the 2010 festival. The debut film by
Banksy - the anonymous British
artist who gained notoriety and fame for his often-politically charged work that would turn up in some very unusual places (inside museum galleries, on the West Bank wall that separates Israelis and Palestinians) - EXIT would leave the festival spurring numerous distribution offers and go out on its own, working with sales agent John Sloss and distributor Richard Abramowitz to bring the film to theatres in the spring. And after a somewhat surprising (relief was more like it) inclusion on the Academy's Documentary Feature shortlist, the film finds itself smack in the middle of Best-of-the-Year conversations. It's nominated for the Documentary prize at the Film Independent Spirit Awards and it's up for 6 awards at next months Cinema Eye Honors, including Outstanding Feature and Outstanding Debut, not to mention the numerous film critics prizes its been garnering (yesterday, it was announced as the Best Documentary and Best First Feature on indieWIRE's annual critics poll). Over the past month, we've had the opportunity to spend some time with the team behind EXIT - producer Jaimie D'Cruz and editor Chris King - including hosting the duo at a screening here in Los Angeles at Cinefamily earlier this month. In their presence, I witnessed numerous others trying to find out what
Banksy thinks of this or that. I had my own questions and
Banksy and team were kind enough to get me his answers (via email, of course)... All these wonderful things: One thing I've heard repeatedly from members of your team was that, early on, you were alone in your conviction that Thierry could and should be the narrative focus of the film - long before his show in LA that concludes the movie. What drew you to Thierry as a film character and, aside from the fact that he had a lot of archival material about
street art at his fingertips, why did you think that he could sustain the film's narrative arc?
Banksy: Thierry’s entertainment potential wasn’t difficult to spot - he actually walks into doors and falls down stairs. It was like hanging out with Groucho Marx but with funnier facial hair. Thierry arrived at a point when my world was becoming infested with hipsters and heavy irony, so his exuberant man-child innocence was fun to be around. Maybe I convinced myself Thierry was a good subject just because I liked him. I’d be lying if I told you the first time I met him I thought ‘this man’s life will deliver a good narrative arc’. From the outset there are problems with any movie about graffiti because all the good
artists refuse to show their face on camera. I needed the film to be fronted by a personality the audience could engage with. The producer Robert Evans said that ‘vulnerability’ is the most important quality in a movie star and that’s a hard thing to portray if all your interviewees have masks over their faces. ATWT: It's clear in the film that you rely on a team of people to create your
artwork. What, if anything, was different about the filmmaking process, and the work you did with that team - Jaimie and Chris and others? And how did you know when you'd found the right collaborators? B: I paint my own pictures but I get a lot of help building stuff and installing it. I have a great little team, but I tell you what - they all hate this fucking film. They don’t care if its effective, they feel very strongly that Mr Brainwash is undeserving of all the attention. Most
street artists feel the same. This film has made me extremely unpopular in my community. ATWT: When I saw the film, it didn't strike me as anything but a true documentary. Perhaps because I live in Los Angeles and I've seen MBW's
art in my neighborhood and remember his big show, but also because it's clear that the scene where Thierry meets Shepard Fairey is at least nine years old (there's now a big movie theater complex across the
street that doesn't exist in the footage that Thierry shot). Yet, p
articularly when the film was opening last spring, there seemed to be this undercurrent of suspicion, perhaps because of the press' desire to paint you as a prankster, that the film was trying to pull one over on us. How much of that conversation have you been paying attention to and what was your take on it? B: Obviously the story is bizarre, that’s why I made a film about it, but I’m still shocked by the level of skepticism. I guess I have to accept that people think I’m full of shit. But I’m not clever enough to have invented Mr. Brainwash, even the most casual on-line research confirms that. Ordinarily I wouldn’t mind if people believe me or not, but the film’s power comes from the fact it’s all 100% true. This is from the frontline, this is watching an
art form self-combust in front of you. Told by the people involved. In real time. This is a very real film about what it means to ‘keep it real’. Besides, if the movie was a carefully scripted prank you can be sure I would’ve given myself some better lines. I would’ve meticulously planned my spontaneous off-the-cuff remarks. I love that famous Jack Benny come-back to a heckler - “You wouldn’t say that if my writers were here.” But I’ve always wondered - did his writers tell him to say that? ATWT: One of the more electrifying and sometimes terrifying moments for any filmmaker is seeing their work with an audience for the first time. Have you seen EXIT with an audience and, if so, what was that experience like? B: Unfortunately I haven’t seen it with an audience. The nearest I got was going to the cinema to see ‘Precious’. They played my trailer beforehand and someone two rows in front shouted ‘OH MY GOD,
BANKSY IS SUCH A SELL-OUT’ and I shrank into my seat. ATWT: What do you think that you discovered about the form of documentary while making this movie and is there any correlation to your other
artistic work? Were you a fan of documentary prior to making the film and, if so, what were some of your favorite films? Did any of them influence what you did on EXIT? B: I’m from a generation for whom documentary isn’t a dirty word. It doesn’t have to mean endless shots of penguins set to classical music. Michael Moore and Morgan Spurlock seemed completely punk to me. And the most punk thing of all was they brought their story undiluted to the multiplex. Documentaries have an important role in recording culture that’s unlikely to make it into the history books. DOGTOWN AND Z-BOYS was the Bill of Rights for skate culture. Having said that, my film was never going to be an authoritative history of
street art. Or even an authoritative history of the selling-out of
street art. We realized halfway through the edit that the ending needed to be as unresolved as possible. I’ve learnt from experience that a painting isn’t finished when you put down your brush – that’s when it st
arts. The public reaction is what supplies meaning and value.
Art comes alive in the arguments you have about it. If we’ve done our job properly with EXIT, then the best p
art of the entire movie is the conversation in the car park afterwards. ATWT: Do you think that there are specific challenges for you and your team due to your anonymity? Did that ever make the process easier or more difficult in a way that other documentary filmmakers may not suspect? B: Deciding who to work with is a balancing act between people’s abilities, and their ability to keep their mouth shut. We’ve had some pretty sensitive footage of different
artists go through our hands. Thankfully it’s all been burnt now. My inability to go around schmoozing people might have hurt the film on one level, but on another level I’m a volatile drunk and it’s probably been an enormous blessing. ATWT: The Toronto Film Critics recently named EXIT as the Best First Feature of 2010, which begs the question of whether there will be another film in the future - and, p
articularly for my own curiosity, would it be another documentary? If so, would you seek out a subject or would you wait for something to cross your path that ignited your desire to create a film about it? B: The
art I make is similar to film - my paintings are essentially freeze frames from movies that are playing in my head. I think its pretty clear that film is the pre-eminent
art form of our age. If Michaelangelo or Leonardo Da Vinci were alive today they’d be making Avatar, not painting a chapel. Film is incredibly democratic and accessible, it’s probably the best option if you actually want to change the world, not just re-decorate it. Posted by AJ Schnack on December 21, 2010 in
Banksy, Cinefamily - What's Up Docs, Cinema Eye Honors, DIY Distribution, Interviews, Michael Moore, Morgan Spurlock, Oscars, Spirit Awards, Sundance Film Festival | Permalink Digg This | Save to del.icio.us TrackBack TrackBack URL for this entry:http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8341bff3653ef0148c6f192f8970c Listed be
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Banksy (Yes,
Banksy) on Thierry, EXIT Skepticism & Documentary Filmmaking as Punk: Comments Great interview...
Banksy is the furthest thing from a sellout there possibly could be...Shepard on the other hand I dunno...but who cares? No one really, except each persons fanboys. I do think
Banksy needs to think about the middle class in this movement though...the people that get up everyday and go to a job they aren't passionate about but see some
street art that makes their day a little more bearable. Seems as though only the elite or less fortunate have any chance of collecting his works...the people that keep the World moving. But what the fuck do I know? -kalm Posted by: kalm | December 21, 2010 at 12:42 PM ...NOT the people that keep the World moving. -kalm(er) Posted by: kalm | December 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM IMO
Banksy IS witty enough to invent MBW, the irony and wit in his
art never ceases to amaze me. PS I am in the middle class and I collect his work. You have to have an imagination to WANT to collect his work... and a few hundred quid :D Posted by: Leumas Darnley | December 21, 2010 at 01:19 PM @Leumas Yeah I don't buy it for a second.
Banksy has literally elevated pranksterism to high
art. MBW, the movie, this interview, very likely
Banksy himself are all grand pranks within pranks within pranks. It's turtles all the way down... Posted by: Kesey | December 21, 2010 at 03:21 PM I used to not like Shephard's stuff that much..but the fact that there are so many people who would rather go put up his stickers than make their own is interesting to me. It's like "I'm a vandal. I'm the
Street Picasso. I'm going to go tag my town up with this design that someone I've never met came up with back when I was listening to Winger" Posted by: obert | December 22, 2010 at 08:41 PM I have not seen the movie, but there seems to be a reoccurring theme in today's hollywood. Challenging what real is & playing with words- ala perception vs reality. Kids getting their rocks off on the everyday person's psyche. Realizing the volatility of human nature they take advantage and act like they are teaching something- maybe they are saying something. Are our short lives something to be utilized or played with? Phoenix & Affleck reflect this as well. Surprisingly poking fun at the human condition that River himself (sadly) succumbed to in his own point of view. I guess whatever pov you need to get by in life. But I can't help but feel protective of the everyday person looking for something/someone true to believe in. Seems some take advantage of their resources & take nothing seriously- including their own talents. Seemingly recklessly influencing others in whatever whim takes hold of the child he
art. 'What can I get them to think?'-childlike power w/adult intelligence. Sounds dangerous. Very Dada twisted with a devil may care attitude. Seems like a waste of attention. But they did get me talking. Posted by: Lvesofgrass | December 23, 2010 at 09:48 AM I, too, as a documentary filmmaker, had had my doubts about the veracity of the entire project, but reading this interview, I am now convinced EXIT is "real," whatever that means. I've been writing about the nature of documentary in the 21st century and how perhaps it needs to be redefined as "docufiction" simply because every documentary trope, from handheld camerawork to jumpcuts, has been appropriated by fiction filmmakers (and why not?), thus documentary becomes a label we, the viewer, supplies to a film. Any film can have documentary value; and any so-called documentary can be contextualized as fictional (i.e.propaganda, for instance); those "parking lot conversations"
Banksy refers to define and redefine not only EXIT but the genre. Posted by: Michael Cox | December 29, 2010 at 06:12 PM "We realized halfway through the edit that the ending needed to be as unresolved as possible. I’ve learnt from experience that a painting isn’t finished when you put down your brush – that’s when it st
arts. The public reaction is what supplies meaning and value. " Really? Kind of a death knell for difficult, challenging or different
art, yes? Posted by: justanother filmmaker | January 01, 2011 at 07:39 AM The fact that Guetta never seems to crack a smile or break out of character in his public interviews makes me believe the whole thing is 100% real. Is the man who calls himself Thierry Guetta in the film the owner of a highly profitable vintage clothing store? It seems like it would be simple journalism to disprove this, and I have not yet seen any evidence that suggests that the man in the film is not who he claims to be. Posted by: Aran | January 02, 2011 at 05:28 PM That was pretty cool seeing how the stencils were pieced together. Guetta's stuff was like watered down Budweiser. I liked seeing what it takes to fool a public and feel good knowing how the LA fakeness is created so well. The film's other greatness is it shows how you can make money with nothing but hype. The only true
art is Calvin & Hobbes....and jello Posted by: Mctwist | January 04, 2011 at 06:37 AM Such an awesome interview....incredible, really. Thank you. Posted by: Jasmine* | January 04, 2011 at 03:33 PM Shame that it is what it is, Thierry's a good dude, met him and hung out with him, as genuine as they come, a bit out of his friggin mind but he's all him...
Banksy is an
artist, one who manipulates the audience with the messages in his images... They say Mr Brainwash is a copy cat, that he aint an
artist, he's got a team... If you saw the movie, you will see when
Banksy brings MBW to his studio(supposed studio) and they are making the bt telephone booth piece, unless
BAnksy played himself and three other dudes int he movie, he obviously has assistants. MBW has some assistants, are the ideas 100% his, only he and those close to him as do
Banksy's trusted. Exit Through The Gift Shop as capturing
street art on film and the
art of it, all you others looking for
artist validation are the same ones who believe in what the movie speaks of.... NOTHING Posted by: Chris Vidal | January 05, 2011 at 08:02 PM What I find very interesting is the hyper attention to the question: Is Mr. Brainwash real? What I find perplexing is how anyone could really answer that question with any kind of authority. Mr. Brainwash never claims to be real. He claims to be a person who shot hundreds of hours of film, got mixed up with some
street artists, then became an
artist himself. He HAS actually had numerous
art shows, and sold
art. If you have
art shows and sell
art, you are, by definition, an
artist. Perhaps you would say that he is an actor that is playing a role scripted by
Banksy. Are actors that make
art (albeit with a team of experts) not
artists? If it were discovered that he is acting, would his creations all of the sudden lose their essential
art-ness? Hours of Thierry's film, documented in EXIT, attest to his history. The real question is, do you like Mr. Brainwashe's
art? What does it say to you? Personally,
Banksy and Fairey seem to have a lot more to say than MBW and therefore I like their
art better - but that's just my opinion. And the movie is excellent - however you try to define it. JG Posted by: JPG | January 06, 2011 at 07:11 PM Granted, I was high when I watched it, but I got the strong impression that Mr. Guetta was mentally disturbed. It seemed others in Exit took notice of this a bit, but if the way he's editing Life Remote Control (if he's actually in control of the creation process of that movie) is in any way indicative of how he perceives the world (dramatized with scene splices and theatrical scores, of course), then we may be looking at an undiagnosed schizophrenic of perhaps a category heretofore unclassified. The way he describes things seems to indicate that he has no sense of chronological direction, that the catalysts of actions and events are mysteries to him, as well as people, and that, in spite of all this, he's somehow managed to--quite possibly through the incessant use of the video camera--make sense of it all and live some semblance of a 'normal' life. Perhaps the camera is what helped 'organize' reality chronologically for him, which explains his obsessive filming, since that p
art of his mind (possibly the thalamus, which translates short-term memory into long-term memory) does not appear to function normally. Just a theory. If this is the case, then we're looking at a documentary within a documentary in more than one sense, in that the story of MBW happening upon the world of
street art contains its own universe of material in addition to the world and dynamics of
street art itself. Any thoughts on this theory? Please feel free to email me. Not a psychologist (mathematician), but I read and study. Thanks! Posted by: Lord Mercius | January 07, 2011 at 03:07 AM Anyone who doubts the film should watch the DVD extra stuff.Clearlly it's as real as any film/docu,maybe a little
artistic licence(I don't care).But I loved it.Also
Banksy at Bristol
art museum,after which I smiled for a week,at the ideas,serious messages/statements,humour an sheer genius. Posted by: Paulynorris | January 07, 2011 at 10:34 AM Fascinating movie any way I look at it. At face value it's quite an education in
street art. If
Banksy really did craft this story and Thierry is his creative invention, it's a brilliant creation... certainly more brilliant than Thierry himself. My favorite line of
Banksy's in the movie was something to the effect that whereas Warhol took stuff that was out there and repeated it until it was meaningless, MBW in turn had taken it up and made it really meaningless. This plays very nicely on the insecurity that lies at the secret he
art of every
art aficionado or -nada: that maybe they're being "taken in." (Warhol's character in "Basquiat": "*sigh* I just don't know what's good anymore!) Interestingly, Thierry's fraud provided a foil to good and sincere
artists like
Banksy and -- I guess -- Warhol. I think I know more about this
art than ever before... I think. Anyway I like it more, and respect the
artists' intent and skills. Posted by: Poetseye.wordpress.com | January 08, 2011 at 10:43 AM I find it more satisfying to believe that EXIT is a mockumentry. I think the footage of
street artists working are mostly real but my credulity was stretched to the breaking point near the end when MBW is getting his "show" together. I think the quantity of
art he had produced with assistance was beyond what I could believe. Plus there were many enigmatic statements at the end that clinched it for me. I enjoyed it immensely and recommend it to my friends. Posted by: twitter.com/RobShaver | January 08, 2011 at 04:52 PM its funny how you only see mr. brainwash splattering paint on his "work" that takes a lot of talent.NOT. i used to respect
banksy and his work. fairey is the biggest sell out in the world, fol
lowed by
banksy. Posted by: B. | January 09, 2011 at 11:23 AM
Banksy, we want you in Armenia, cos here our
streetartist have faced police, and may be judged.....for there graffiti of a ploitical prisoner and a hanged soldier.........react somehow. p.s. I am a journalist, and may be I will be useful.... Posted by: Ashkhen | January 09, 2011 at 12:56 PM Grateful for this excellent interview but I can't help but read it as some of the MBW interviews I've digested: as light-he
arted distraction and 3-card monte. In one moment
Banksy is explaining that he's not clever enough for a ruse of this magnitude, and then he drops the Jack Benny quote with a curious postscript. Personally, I like the film as a hoax and I don't think it drains the tale of its meaning. I'm also willing to accept that as a leap of logic, but frankly I see accepting the film as truth as an even larger leap. The film's various details: the storybook narrator, the offensive asides from MBW's confederates (and damn it
Banksy you got yourself some EXCELLENT lines in this movie), the very strange Disneyland expedition, the very fact that
Banksy was willing to let himself be continuously filmed by a seemingly genuine yet clumsy half-wit who could have easily had his film appropriated by the vice squad members he sloppily interacts with. It's all a bit too bizarre for straight dope. I'm willing to bet that Guetta is a combination of truths, half-truths and pranky goodness (like perhaps anyone). I don't think the thing is wholesale wool but I do think MBW is a creation. The counterintelligence is there, as is the large group of smiling nodders. This is not Herzog, the film is not a mad scramble for truth with a semi-psychopathic genius. This is interpretive
art and I'm willing to bet we'll never find the smoking gun, but nor have we found the smiling
Banksy either. All of
Banksy's best ideas are here, fact or fiction: question what you see and know your enemy. And smile when they slip in excrement. As for him being a sell-out? Forget all that. Cream rises to the top and the slackjaws with disposable income will pay top dollar for it. At least he made an
art object that most anyone can purchase to beautify their home and massage their brain with. Posted by: Frayed Knot | January 10, 2011 at 05:58 AM My biggest issue is that Mr Brainwash's
art is so obviously linked to
Banksy. I get that you can be a filmmaker and a photographer and a documentary maker and even a writer (I have been all of those things). But the visual medium of
street art ... and , more to the point, the arresting, shock comedy of the work is not something you can just kind of flick a switch and turn on, as it appeared happened in the film. I suspect the actual guy who is Mr Brainwash is real, and yes, he did once own a vintage clothes shop, and even, yes, he did film lots of footage of
street artists. But when he suddenly transforms into LA's version of
banksy, churning out so many works of
art, mixing pop culture, social themes, shock images, etc etc etc ... that is so
Banksy it's not funny. I've walked the
streets of inner Melbourne, Australia, for years, watching local
artists trying to be the new
Banksy and very few get even close to the humour and commentary that he brings to the
artform. His wit is what sets him ap
art and was very evident in the LA show depicted. That's why I'm dubious about Mr Brainwash. I think he should be Mr Handpuppet ... which I'm totally cool with. It's still a brilliant piece of work by
Banksy: just to have all of us wondering. And I must admit, I walked out of the theatre, suspecting he was
Banksy in disguise. Posted by: nicko longabaugh | January 10, 2011 at 02:49 PM English is not my first language and I didn't understand in the movie- how did
Banksy get his hands on all the footage shot by Thierry? Otherwise the film has made me think, and that's all that's important...What IS
art, at the end of the day? WHO decides which
art is worthwhile? Freaky how easily we people get fooled though!:-) Posted by: Iliana | January 10, 2011 at 03:06 PM Screw you Obert, what did Winger ever do to you? Posted by: boozedealer | January 11, 2011 at 04:16 PM "anonymous British
artist" He's not anonymous, he's pseudonymous. We know who we're talking about, it's just not his real name. Sorry. Posted by: Kiril | January 11, 2011 at 05:49 PM When I describe this movie to people I tell them its a story about a very strange guy but then it becomes something completely different. Watching it I found myself sucked into Thierry's video taping compulsion as well as the inside look at grafffitti
art. Mr. Brainwash came out of nowhere and I ended up walking away thinking about the nature of what
art is. Is it
art if it has a message? Is it
art if its done in collaboration? Is it
art if you pay people to do it for you? Is it
art if people pay millions to own it? Whether this movie is a documentary or a mockumentary it st
arts the right kind of conversations. Posted by: gydnew | January 11, 2011 at 06:10 PM To AJ - thanks for a great
article and interview! @Ashkhen - you are a 'journalist'??? You can barely form a coherent sentence. @ nicko longabaugh - Spot on - very close to what I was going to post, but I couldn't have said it any better.
Banksy is no sell-out; He's achieved what every
artist wants - notoriety and to incite people to think about the nature of his work. I'm unclear how anyone can think that is 'selling out'... He's done it on his own terms. Kudos. Posted by: Bobcooleyphoto | January 11, 2011 at 08:12 PM Verify your Comment Previewing your Comment Posted by: | This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted. Your comment could not be posted. Error type: Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again. As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image be
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low AJ on Twitter CONVENTION Official Website January 2011 Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Recent Posts Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady on Making 12TH AND DELAWARE, How They Divide the Work & Collaborating with HBO The Most Honored Documentary of 2010 is EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP Merry Christmas to all... Alex Gibney Talks Creative Choices in CLIENT 9, How He Balances His Huge Slate and the Documentary Golden Age P
art Two: Courier and Libresco Talk Sundance Stand-outs BUCK, HOT COFFEE, HOW TO DIE and WE WERE HERE
Banksy (Yes,
Banksy) on Thierry, EXIT Skepticism & Documentary Filmmaking as Punk Sundance Doc Programmers Libresco & Courier on 2011's Big Themes and How the "Three G's" Led to the Doc Premiere Section RESTREPO's Tim Hetherington & Sebastian Junger on Their Unlikely P
artnership and What They Learned From Each Other EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP and INSIDE JOB Have the Momentum After a Weekend of Critics Awards Sundance 2011: Shorts Feature New Work by Jonathan Caouette, Jem Cohen, Jessica Oreck, Isabella Rossellini & Gail Dolgin Recent Comments Bobcooleyphoto on
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